Joints and other bendy parts

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Phillip Huber on July 5, 2009 at 10:52pm

I think you are right that trunk fiber joints will work well in most situations. Urbano's puppets had been put through very hard use with 7-10 shows per day, 7 days a week in some theme park situations. That is far more use than the average marionette will have in a lifetime. For me, the stainless steel just gives me that much more confidence that I will not have to spend time fixing joints when I can least afford the time to do it.

Permalink Reply by Wyohming on July 7, 2009 at 12:58pm

Thanks for your replies and advice! Are we talking about joints for wooden marionettes here or would the stainless steel and trunk fiber work for marionettes made of other materials?

Wy

Permalink Reply by Phillip Huber on July 24, 2009 at 2:28pm

Jim, I was performing the Mrs Noah in that video. I also was helping Rolande Duprey with advice on the restoration process. The fire damage to that puppet was very specific. Some burning peices of debris had landed on her leg & totally burned the thigh peice away. Nothing had touched the trunk fiber joints that I could see. Yes the trunk fiber was fine even though it was very old, but I would not make the stretch to say that it even survives fire damage. The part of her leg that was destroyed was mostly a hollow shell of cardboard covered in Plastic wood.

Permalink Reply by Phillip Huber on July 24, 2009 at 2:39pm

Wy, The trunk fiber & stainless steel joints would work for any rigid material that you can cut, & slot to construct a tongue-in-groove style joint. It works for hollow cast plastic wood, celastic, 2-part resin & thick paper mache. I am not sure how you would make it work for a cloth marionette. You would have to attach some wood inside the cloth peices that would create a solid base for this joint. Tongue-in-groove joints are mostly used to created & very positive joint that looks beautiful. If the joint is hidden by clothes, you may find a simple hinge type joint would be easier & just as effective.

Permalink Reply by Wyohming on August 19, 2009 at 4:37am

I want to make a tongue in groove joint but I have a question...
- what is best to use as the pin? something metal or wooden?
- how do you stop the ends of the pin showing through to the outside of the limb if the leg is on show?
- if you paint the ends of the pin doesn't the paint wear off?
- what stops the pin falling out?
- what stops there being too much friction, do you need to oil or grease the pin?

I'm having problems visualising the joint, I can see the tongue in groove part but not where the pin fits in!

Wyoh

Permalink Reply by Tony on February 15, 2010 at 8:41am

Sorry guys, been away for a while, how are we all?
Don't want to tread on any toes but IMO the answers to your questions Wy are:

1 - Metal pin (use veneer pins for really small joints or you can get brass or stainless steel rods in 1mm, 2mm, 3mm diameters etc
2 - If you don't go all the way through joint pin will only show from one side, if you have a room you could enlarge the hole on the outside(cut the pin short so its slightly below the surface) and then fill with whatever material you are using. (sometimes called plugging in woodworking terms)
3 - Possibly never done that (use a metal primer first for a metal pin I suppose)
4 - If you haven't plugged then a spot of glue usually stops pin coming out
5 - if the groove is very slightly bigger than the tongue friction should not be a problem (never has been in my experience) but if it is then wd40 or similar should help. Make sure hole through tongue is very slightly bigger than pin but don't make it bigger so you get 'play' in the joint.

Here are wood joints (metal pins) on ankles/knees, metal rod on hips, brass on elbows and cord for body/wrists/shoulders and neck, hope it helps

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2727/4358651581_a1a0fe9bfe_b.jpg"/>

The knee joints were adjusted when it came to operate to allow more movements but for aesthetic reasons slots(grooves) were kept small up to that point.

Tony




Wyohming said:

I want to make a tongue in groove joint but I have a question...
- what is best to use as the pin? something metal or wooden? - how do you stop the ends of the pin showing through to the outside of the limb if the leg is on show? - if you paint the ends of the pin doesn't the paint wear off?
- what stops the pin falling out?
- what stops there being too much friction, do you need to oil or grease the pin?

I'm having problems visualising the joint, I can see the tongue in groove part but not where the pin fits in!

Wyoh

Permalink Reply by Wyohming on February 22, 2010 at 5:24am

Thanks Tony, nice to see you back around :)
Thanks for your answers and the picture.. all really useful.

Been busy?

Wy

Permalink Reply by FlaCracker on April 11, 2010 at 6:48am

My Leprechaun was made from a pattern from a book by Edith Flack Ackley. He has a cloth body made of muslin like Phillip Huber is talking about. In fact I dyed the muslin with a common tea bag to get my flesh tone color.

Permalink Reply by FlaCracker on April 11, 2010 at 6:51am

Wow he is very beautiful puppet & I don't think I have seen knees like that before?

Tony said:

Sorry guys, been away for a while, how are we all?
Don't want to tread on any toes but IMO the answers to your questions Wy are:

1 - Metal pin (use veneer pins for really small joints or you can get brass or stainless steel rods in 1mm, 2mm, 3mm diameters etc
2 - If you don't go all the way through joint pin will only show from one side, if you have a room you could enlarge the hole on the outside(cut the pin short so its slightly below the surface) and then fill with whatever material you are using. (sometimes called plugging in woodworking terms)
3 - Possibly never done that (use a metal primer first for a metal pin I suppose)
4 - If you haven't plugged then a spot of glue usually stops pin coming out
5 - if the groove is very slightly bigger than the tongue friction should not be a problem (never has been in my experience) but if it is then wd40 or similar should help. Make sure hole through tongue is very slightly bigger than pin but don't make it bigger so you get 'play' in the joint.

Here are wood joints (metal pins) on ankles/knees, metal rod on hips, brass on elbows and cord for body/wrists/shoulders and neck, hope it helps

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2727/4358651581_a1a0fe9bfe_b.jpg"/>

The knee joints were adjusted when it came to operate to allow more movements but for aesthetic reasons slots(grooves) were kept small up to that point.

Tony




Wyohming said:

I want to make a tongue in groove joint but I have a question...
- what is best to use as the pin? something metal or wooden? - how do you stop the ends of the pin showing through to the outside of the limb if the leg is on show? - if you paint the ends of the pin doesn't the paint wear off?
- what stops the pin falling out?
- what stops there being too much friction, do you need to oil or grease the pin?

I'm having problems visualising the joint, I can see the tongue in groove part but not where the pin fits in!

Wyoh

Permalink Reply by Steven Shipman on June 10, 2010 at 12:34am

Hi David, I was just wondering, where in the world do you find trunk fiber? I've been searching online and asking around and I just can't find it. Any advice would be very much appreciated. :)

David Syrotiak said:

Hi Whyoming,

Sorry I joined this discussion late. I really like the old fashioned trunk fiber/dowel pin joint. The reason I like it so much is because this type of joint allows for very definite controlled movement on a specific axis. Marionettes by design are very loose figures that can have a tendency to get away from you if not properly constructed. By using joints that have definite controlled movement built into them the puppeteer has a lot more control of the figure.
So, for my particular style of puppetry trunk fiber joints are the best choice.

Permalink Reply by Gina in CA on February 24, 2011 at 12:35am

David, what is the "Baird turn buckle hip joint?"  Can you describe it in detail or show a diagram? If it's good for dancers, I should learn about it because I'm in the middle of making a Fred Astaire marionette (the head has been a bigger challenge than I expected because - wow -- that dude had one really distinctivele lightbulb-shaped head!).

One joint I read about and saw in Luman Coad's "Marionette Sourcebook" is a rotating arm joint -- it goes into the upper arm so that your marionette can turn its arms out and not just raise/lower them. This, too, seems important for dancing marionette so I want to include it. But Coad's illustrations are tiny and I'm having trouble understanding how this one is made. Anyone know of any other references to it, online or otherwise?

An important feature on my Astaire marionette's control will be rotating spool on the top of the control. By holding the spool with one hand, you can spin the control around with the other and the puppet can to a 360-degree spin. I saw that one in the Currell "Making & Manipulating Marionettes" book.

Permalink Reply by A.G. on May 11, 2011 at 11:04pm

Hey everyone!

Wyohming's questions and everyone's answers have clarified a lot for me. THANK YOU! Now to try.

Along these same lines--marionette neck joints overwhelm me slightly. I'm working on some right now, and I'm trying a wooden neck for the first time. Does anyone have a technique they'd care to share with me? Thanks so much!

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